Offpiste advice for noobies

bandit wrote:

In no way am I experienced in off piste or mountaineering. I have barely scratched the surface. The more I learn, the more I realise there is to learn.
My personal opinion is that reckless behaviour off piste should be addressed pretty firmly. If this does not happen, it will eventually become impossible to buy affordable insurance.

Bandit - Apologies. You may have only scratched the surface, but from the little I know, you are more experienced than me which I guess is what I meant.

For what it's worth. I absolutely agree with you about reckless behaviour. What worries me, is that the laws drawn up to clamp down on reckless behaviour off piste will have the unintended consequence of penalising, or even criminalising, those who have behaved responsibly but were just unlucky.

Adam67 wrote:I presume it is a prerequisite then to have appropriate first aid and medical skills if you have all the avalanche kit? On the other side of the coin, if you have the kit does it make it easier to be found or should I say quicker to be found if 'taken'? or is it just designed to find people? Can anyone recommend the best value for money kit for recreational skiers? Thanks

Not sure about value for money, but I can vouch for the BCA Tracker. It is very simple to use with large controls, which becomes very important if you have to use it. The newer model has been improved to make it even esier to operate. (I especially like the look of the control to switch from transmit to search mode, which makes it very difficult to accidentaly leave it in search mode.)

http://www.backcountryaccess.com/product/tracker-2/

For shovels and probes, ebay is probably your friend. Do make sure that you pick a shovel and probe that is sturdy enough. Avalanche snow sets very solidly. You are not going to be digging or probing light powder. Then you need a backpack to put it all in. Do not be tempted to strap these things to the outside of a pack. They can easily get ripped off if you are caught in a slide.

As you can see, it is a pretty big outlay for something you hope to never need, even at ebay prices. This is without considering, touring bindings, boots or skins. Then you need to consider how much baggage this will add to your allowance when flying. You must make sure you know how to use the equipment and practice. As others have said, it is just as important to get educated so that you don't end up in a slide in the first place.

I suspect that most people who read this site are similar to me in that they do a few weeks skiing a year, at most, and will not realistically be able to develop the skills and experience necessary to venture off into the wilderness without a guide during the limited time they have. This makes it very unecconomical to get all of the kit for the few times you might hire a guide or participate in a group excursion. In many of these cases, the kit is available or provided for free. However, there are a few avalanche controled areas in Canada that require you to have the equipment as a condition of entry.

AllyG wrote:I don't know about other resorts, but Tignes has an avalanche training zone, by the lake, which apparently (according to the piste map) has 8 beacons buried permanently under the snow so that people can practise their search technique using avalanche transceivers.

Why worry seeing as you said you're not going to go off piste........apart from that run you mentioned on another thread?

bandit wrote:Tony, it's good practice to carry the appropriate gear when off piste. This would enable you to search for, and dig out your family and friends if they were unfortunate enough to be in an avalanche. If all of your group are suitably equipped then they can do the same for you.
Additionally, if you come across an avalanche, you can help to search for victims, aid other rescuers/search teams if needed.

If you buy insurance which is suitable for off piste skiing, then your insurer will expect you to take all appropriate steps available to ensure your own safety. There is usually a clause in the small print about not putting yourself in needless peril.

As Steve has just pointed out, for someone like myself who skies maybe 3 weeks a season if I'm lucky, it's a big layout and it raises the issues as Steve has also pointed out a lot transporting them.
I know, bandit, you like to be modest about what you do, but you live for much of the season in Switzerland, and regularly post us photos of off piste runs you have done which look amazing, and regularly talk about all the touring gear you have, so whilst you may still be learning and developing, compared to 99.9% of uk skiers you have bags of experience and knowledge, and I for one am grateful for you to share it with us.

This may have beem said in a previous post, but they are so long to go back over.
Is it possivle to hire appropriate gear for a week to save the cost of purchase and transport?
I did see you will be provided with it you hire a guide.

The Mammut Element Barryvox and the Ortovox 3+ do well in tests here http://www.kassensturz.sf.tv/Tests/Lawinenverschuettetensuchgeraete-im-Test The shovel should preferably be made from 6061 aluminium tempered to T6 and if you have a small hand a D shaped handle is better than a T shaped one. The probe should be about 2.5m in length and should not come apart or bend in use; some of them are a bit flimsy.

It is possible to rent the gear but you need to practice using it first.

Considering the size of the market (the world market for avalanche transceivers is about 70,000 units a year) and their complexity, transceivers are remarkably cheap. Sport Conrad is selling one for 190 euros at the moment, which isn't a great deal more than a POC helmet.

The real problem is acquiring the knowledge needed to decide whether a slope is safe to ski or not, this takes time and most skiers simply don't have the time available. A recent study by an Austrian university found that 40% of off piste skiers under estimate the avalanche danger, especially when the slope is greater than 40 degrees, when the snow is wet and when the avalanche danger is at level 4.

SwingBeep wrote:
The real problem is acquiring the knowledge needed to decide whether a slope is safe to ski or not, this takes time and most skiers simply don't have the time available. A recent study by an Austrian university found that 40% of off piste skiers under estimate the avalanche danger, especially when the slope is greater than 40 degrees, when the snow is wet and when the avalanche danger is at level 4.

Having read every post in this debate, without comment, I think the above is the nub. It is difficult for the 2/3 weeker to accumulate the knowledge, and the "feeling" for avalanche potential.
Imagine you are an interviewer on the slopes. You ask people:
"What angle of slope are you skiing on?"
"What is the current Avalanche Level on this slope?"
"What was the ground temperature prior to the last major snowfall?"
Maybe several other technical questions. ~ Who could answer?

While we all should be able to answer the AV Level, I doubt that many could assess other questions.

I have, fortunately on few occasions, had a realisation that I was in avalanche danger ~purely by the feeling underfoot. It is unexplainable, but I have recognised the feeling, and moved cautiously away.
The OP rightly asked about the move from Off Piste advice to avalanche issues. They are entwined.
When I started skiing, there was no Piste and off Piste. In my favourite resort, there were 17 named runs. We freely skied all of them, without any thought of piste or off-piste.

Tony, Dids1 you can rent Shovels, Probes and Transceivers in most decent ski shops. If you are flying with the kit, a Transceiver should go in your hand baggage, probe and shovel in your hold baggage. Shovel is quite useful for protecting stuff in the case!
Got the chance to test this out locally last year when my OH left his Transceiver in the UK :mrgreen:
He rented a Barryvox Pulse and said it was very easy to use.
The kit is light, weight is not an issue. My shovel weighs 1.2lbs or so.

Rental is a good place to start, and it would be a great opportunity to go and spend an hour in one of the many dedicated training centres where you can set a simulated search and dig . There are quite a few around the Euopean Alps now, AllyG has mentioned the one in Tignes.

What I think I'm reading is that folks don't think they are serious enough to warrant carrying the kit. I'd say that because they are lacking in knowledge and experience in off piste terrain, they they will need the kit more than a local Mountain Guide does, since the Guide is able to assess the situation effectively.