Offpiste advice for noobies

I like to play it safe, so I've paid for Carre Neige insurance, which does cover ski-ing off-piste without a guide, and I've also got annual travel insurance with the Ski Club of GB which covers me for 21 days of ski-ing even if I am off-piste without a guide (but does have a £250 excess for search and rescue).

I wouldn't be at all surprised if the insurers counted you as off-piste even if you're only about 2 yards off the piste. They are, after all, trying to make a profit and from what I've seen of them they will try and wriggle out of paying up if it's at all possible!

So I'm certainly not planning on doing any serious off-piste stuff, but I might go the wrong way, go down the side of the piste, fall off the piste (!) or take a short cut to a cafe.

Edit
And if I decide I want to go seriously off-piste I will do a course on avalanche training and then book with a guide or an instructor and go with a group, all kitted out with the correct equipment.

Tony_H wrote:
This is the whole crux of it.....whats off piste and what isnt? Between the pistes, itinerary routes, ski routes, etc.

I'm quite happy doing those at the moment, which I hadnt considered required additional insurance before now.

Ha ha!!
A lightbulb moment :D

and a valid point, particularly about itineries and free ride areas.


From - http://www.jsinsurance.co.uk/travel_insurance/off-piste-skiing-travel-insurance.html
Off Piste Skiing Travel Insurance:
Off piste skiing, also known as backcountry skiing, is skiing in rural areas that are not marked trails or ski slopes in unmaintained and non patrolled areas.
Off-Piste is defined for Travel Insurance purposes as when you are skiing or snowboarding in an area designated safe by the Resort Management.
Never go off-piste alone and always carry an avalanche transceiver, shovel and a probe.

and from Direct Travel - who I use.....
http://www.direct-travel.co.uk/faq/can-i-ski-and-snowboard-off-piste.aspx
Can I ski and snowboard off-piste?
Yes. Our winter sports travel policies allow you complete freedom of the mountains (as long as you are not skiing or snowboarding against local authority or resort management advice)

Personally I want the knowledge that wherever I end up, by design or accident, I am covered!

It does look like each insurer may have a slightly different wording - which could have an impact on itineraries for example.

I have no idea what your people would say if you crashed and needed rescuing from 20' past a blue pole - and more importantly perhaps what the view would be if you crashed into someone and seriously damaged them 20' from said pole.

If I were an insurer I would say "sorry, not covered, your outside the marked pistes and haven't got off-piste cover".

Now - whereas you could possible pull yourself back to the piste with a smashed knee or broken something or other - I doubt that the person you ran into would be that happy with you slinging them over your shoulder and taking them back to the piste so they could claim damages on your insurance!

Ok, so the insurance is something I need to look into, although it should cover me for ski routes and itinerary runs as they are marked trails, right?

As for transceivers and shovels, I dont think Im at the stage where I need them with what Im likely to be skiing. Its not like Im going down the back of the valuga......and the vast majority of people I saw doing that didnt carry full kit either.....

Tony_H wrote:Heres the problem: its woolly wording like "not considered off piste" and "generally" or "as such" that doesnt make things any clearer, no disrespect, as I massively appreciate the advice. I understand skiing a CLOSED run invalidates insurance, no problem with that, and I also understand avalanches may happen whatever the risk level.
Also, I assume "And no, I don't think you need safety gear to ski between pistes" is your own personal opinion, one which I share, rather than an official line? The problem is, if you are skiing between pistes and have an accident, are you expected to shuffle a few metres with your leg hanging off to the piste in order to get helicoptered off the mountain?

Tony, with most injuries not life/limb-threatening and which happen in the proximity of pistes and easily accessible from there you won't be helicoptered off but brought down on sledges by patrol. Helicopters are expensive and even if you are fully covered it doesn't make practical sense to fly them especially that there can be a more serious situation elsewhere. If something happens patrol is usually called. They will only call a helicopter if there are no other means to get to you and get you down.

Just buy insurance in resort when you are buying a ski pass, it should have you covered (unless you duck the rope put by resort) and will supplement your travel insurance (which I heard could be tricky). I also buy a Rega insurance. I think for 30 CHF a year it's a fantastic deal. If you choose a country to ski any given year you can buy a local alternative. Carre Neige in France is very good. The lift company at your chosen resort should normally have information desk and if you are in doubt you can always ask them what you need to be covered.

As for safety gear I haven't heard there is a requirement to have one for skiing between the pistes. Moreover when I only started venturing between pistes and began taking lessons, my instructor would be taking me everywhere between pistes and he said that I didn't need any special insurance, but once I advanced enough and wanted to ski harder and more remote stuff I had to start advanced lessons which specifically covered me for off-piste (apart from areas explicitly banned by a school) and I had to bring gear. But we were skiing further off-piste and even hiking up some mountains to ski down. If you are taking an off-piste course or a guided tour gear is required.

AllyG wrote: I wouldn't be at all surprised if the insurers counted you as off-piste even if you're only about 2 yards off the piste.

According to this document; L'obligation d'assurer la sécurité sur les descnetes pour sports de neige. http://www.seilbahnen.org/Service_des_piste_et_de_sauvetage.html which governs the operation of snow sport areas here in Switzerland, the piste officially ends 2 metres beyond the poles marking the edge of the piste. Other alpine countries have similar regulations.

If you are skiing off piste near to a piste you should take extra care as pistes are legally classified as public thoroughfares, if you trigger an avalanche that covers one it's an extremely serious matter especially if someone one is caught in it.

It is a criminal offence to trigger an avalanche in Italy (even in the middle of nowhere) the punishment can be up to 12 years in jail, if a death is involved 15 years. As I mentioned previously it's mandatory to carry avi gear when skiing off piste in Piemonte, in the rest of Italy ski tourers are required use avalanche transceivers if there is an obvious avalanche risk, the risk level is not given.

SwingBeep wrote:
It is a criminal offence to trigger an avalanche in Italy (even in the middle of nowhere) the punishment can be up to 12 years in jail, if a death is involved 15 years. As I mentioned previously it's mandatory to carry avi gear when skiing off piste in Piemonte, in the rest of Italy ski tourers are required use avalanche transceivers if there is an obvious avalanche risk, the risk level is not given.

I can understand if you trigger an avalanche onto a piste or other slope users due to recklessness, but this law seems ridiculously draconian.

Sorry to hijack the thread somewhat.

If SwingBeeps interpretation is correct, think about what this means. Imagine you are skiing with a guide in an area miles away from the resort having done everything right (training, checking avalanche bulletins, carrying the right equipment etc...). However, you are very unlucky and get into a situation where you need rescuing by your guide and companion, who also call mountain rescue and the emergency services. Do you then go to prison? Do we end up in the situation that people in minor incidents hold off reporting them due to the fear of prosecution? How does that serve the greater good?

If you are prosecuted, are you tried by a jury of your peers? Are you tried by a jury of off piste skiers or the general public?

I find the encroachment of law into private mountain pursuits very sad.

steverandomno wrote:

If SwingBeeps interpretation is correct, think about what this means. Imagine you are skiing with a guide in an area miles away from the resort having done everything right (training, checking avalanche bulletins, carrying the right equipment etc...). However, you are very unlucky and get into a situation where you need rescuing by your guide and companion, who also call mountain rescue and the emergency services. Do you then go to prison?

If you are prosecuted, are you tried by a jury of your peers? Are you tried by a jury of off piste skiers or the general public?

In that scenario the Guide is responsible as they are the professional in charge of the group/you.

Any trial like that would call an Expert Witness. In France Alain Duclos is often called to give an opinion. It's usually a Judge in charge.

http://www.alea-avalanche.com/

Tony, it's good practice to carry the appropriate gear when off piste. This would enable you to search for, and dig out your family and friends if they were unfortunate enough to be in an avalanche. If all of your group are suitably equipped then they can do the same for you.
Additionally, if you come across an avalanche, you can help to search for victims, aid other rescuers/search teams if needed.

If you buy insurance which is suitable for off piste skiing, then your insurer will expect you to take all appropriate steps available to ensure your own safety. There is usually a clause in the small print about not putting yourself in needless peril.