Offpiste advice for noobies
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Looks like the avalanche happened just next to ski route. Main access to Col des Mines itinerary is still closed and even if it's not a massive obstacle, it would have been a bit of hassle to ski around and side-step up. Crebelet access never closes as it's not an itinerary, just off-piste, and a stretch between Crebelet and Col des Mines is notorious for avalanches. It's quite silly to go there right after the storm, the snow there settles fairly quickly, but you need to give it time to do it and it will be good till the next storm.
I am not sure, Tony, what exactly you like to know about itineraries, but at least in Verbier they are marked runs and not considered off-piste as such. However, they are not avalanche controlled. The access will be closed when considered too dangerous (risk level 4, sometimes 3) and skiing the closed run will invalidate your insurance should something happen. When they are officially open you still need to excersise caution as they don't get bombed or monitored and avalanches may happen at risk level 2 and 3 all the same. But you will be covered in this case. I don't know what the status of itineraries/routes in other resorts/countries. Also, if you book yourself off-piste lesson/clinic, it will normally include off-piste insurance for the duration of the course. You should also be covered when you book a guide. I would say it's better to do course/clinic first, work on some technique, otherwise you will be taken by a guide to shallow areas that you can ski on your own anyway. Though, still it's good to know such places and access points, so you will get a good value if you do it in resort you ski often. But for once only visits - do courses and then eventually get a guide proper to ski some gnarl:):) And avalanche safety training (not just how to use the equipment, which you can learn by reading manuals) is fascinating. Won't make you an expert, but there are things that are good to know. Awareness is so much better than fear or just taking risks blindly IMHO. And no, I don't think you need safety gear to ski between pistes. Also, if the slope angle is below 30 degrees, it's not considered generally to be avalanche risky. Get "Staying alive in avalanche terrain" from Amazon - very interesting read, or 'Snow Sense' which has pretty much the same content though more brief. Both are very good sources of information on avalanches.
Yes - unless yopur insurance ocvers you for off-piste rescue without a guide!
So what happens then when the medics turn up and some do gooder says "yeh I saw him take a tumble right there between the pistes in the off piste....." ?
If you want to ski off-piste then buy cover that is appropriate!
This is the whole crux of it.....whats off piste and what isnt? Between the pistes, itinerary routes, ski routes, etc.
I'm quite happy doing those at the moment, which I hadnt considered required additional insurance before now.
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Started by Tony_H in Ski Chatter 10-Dec-2012 - 67 Replies
SwingBeep
reply to 'Offpiste advice for noobies' posted Dec-2012
To help you assess the risks involved have a look at the info provided by the SLF http://www.slf.ch/dienstleistungen/merkblaetter/index_EN and download their e-learning application White Risk http://download.whiterisk.org/WRStore/lang_e/home/home.jsp
Verbier_ski_bum
reply to 'Offpiste advice for noobies' posted Dec-2012
bandit wrote:Tony, security on ski routes and Itineraries varies from country to country. As a current example, the Verbier Avalanche happened in a ski route area. Not sure if those caught up were on the route or simply near it. Some countries patrol their Itineraries, some don't. Some are properly secured.
There is no "just off piste" status, you are either on or off. If you choose off, then it's down to you to deal with the conditions on the day. If you choose to venture off piste with no equipment or training, it's up to you.
As each ski year passes, you are likely to go a little further off the piste. Consider how far you'd like to be away from everything before it's worthwhile for you to buy the safety kit.
This little series of videos make a lot of sense...Avalanche Avoiding Kung Fu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MqWNYiuZS28
Looks like the avalanche happened just next to ski route. Main access to Col des Mines itinerary is still closed and even if it's not a massive obstacle, it would have been a bit of hassle to ski around and side-step up. Crebelet access never closes as it's not an itinerary, just off-piste, and a stretch between Crebelet and Col des Mines is notorious for avalanches. It's quite silly to go there right after the storm, the snow there settles fairly quickly, but you need to give it time to do it and it will be good till the next storm.
Verbier_ski_bum
reply to 'Offpiste advice for noobies' posted Dec-2012
Tony_H wrote:Interesting all this.
But we've gone from someone asking for advice straight into talking about avalanches.
Whilst I'm fully aware of this being a risk, I was actually trying to ask whether having ventured off piste a number of times before is as risky as some make it out to be. And no ones answered the question about ski routes or itinerary runs.
And for some reason we have got some responses about skiing in powder on piste; this is something ANYONE can do after a dump of snow and whilst its fun and helps teach you technique, its totally not the point.
I'm aware of local avalanche risks, the flag system, and pretty much in tune with the local weather wherever I ski, and aware how different conditions can affect snow.
I've never been the guy who made the first tracks. Off piste, anyway, maybe on piste ;-)
But I'd love to. I've only ever skied where I've seen other tracks. Zurs was a great example; a group of us took a chair over a large open area which had some tracks in it after 36 hours of persistent snow, and we all sad it looked amazing. However, at first attempt some of the group changed their mind so we skied down the piste and back up the chair. This time, everyone looked at it and decided it was well within their abilities and we had an amazing half hour. However, I'm sure on reflection there were risks which we maybe never considered properly. One of those who came got a proper telling off from their other half, who was unable to join us sadly.
I have to say it was great fun and as difficult as it may have seemed to some, everyone coped very well and were buzzing at the bottom.
But should we all have had shovels and transceivers?
I really don't honestly know the answer to that, and certainly none off the other skiers we saw on that area did.
So, can anyone actually shed any definitive light on what's what?
As ally says; do we REALLY need all the kit to ski a few metres between the pistes?????
I am not sure, Tony, what exactly you like to know about itineraries, but at least in Verbier they are marked runs and not considered off-piste as such. However, they are not avalanche controlled. The access will be closed when considered too dangerous (risk level 4, sometimes 3) and skiing the closed run will invalidate your insurance should something happen. When they are officially open you still need to excersise caution as they don't get bombed or monitored and avalanches may happen at risk level 2 and 3 all the same. But you will be covered in this case. I don't know what the status of itineraries/routes in other resorts/countries. Also, if you book yourself off-piste lesson/clinic, it will normally include off-piste insurance for the duration of the course. You should also be covered when you book a guide. I would say it's better to do course/clinic first, work on some technique, otherwise you will be taken by a guide to shallow areas that you can ski on your own anyway. Though, still it's good to know such places and access points, so you will get a good value if you do it in resort you ski often. But for once only visits - do courses and then eventually get a guide proper to ski some gnarl:):) And avalanche safety training (not just how to use the equipment, which you can learn by reading manuals) is fascinating. Won't make you an expert, but there are things that are good to know. Awareness is so much better than fear or just taking risks blindly IMHO. And no, I don't think you need safety gear to ski between pistes. Also, if the slope angle is below 30 degrees, it's not considered generally to be avalanche risky. Get "Staying alive in avalanche terrain" from Amazon - very interesting read, or 'Snow Sense' which has pretty much the same content though more brief. Both are very good sources of information on avalanches.
Edited 1 time. Last update at 11-Dec-2012
Tony_H
reply to 'Offpiste advice for noobies' posted Dec-2012
Heres the problem: its woolly wording like "not considered off piste" and "generally" or "as such" that doesnt make things any clearer, no disrespect, as I massively appreciate the advice. I understand skiing a CLOSED run invalidates insurance, no problem with that, and I also understand avalanches may happen whatever the risk level.
Also, I assume "And no, I don't think you need safety gear to ski between pistes" is your own personal opinion, one which I share, rather than an official line? The problem is, if you are skiing between pistes and have an accident, are you expected to shuffle a few metres with your leg hanging off to the piste in order to get helicoptered off the mountain?
Also, I assume "And no, I don't think you need safety gear to ski between pistes" is your own personal opinion, one which I share, rather than an official line? The problem is, if you are skiing between pistes and have an accident, are you expected to shuffle a few metres with your leg hanging off to the piste in order to get helicoptered off the mountain?
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OldAndy
reply to 'Offpiste advice for noobies' posted Dec-2012
Tony_H wrote: The problem is, if you are skiing between pistes and have an accident, are you expected to shuffle a few metres with your leg hanging off to the piste in order to get helicoptered off the mountain?
Yes - unless yopur insurance ocvers you for off-piste rescue without a guide!
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Tony_H
reply to 'Offpiste advice for noobies' posted Dec-2012
....which of course it doesnt.OldAndy wrote:Tony_H wrote: The problem is, if you are skiing between pistes and have an accident, are you expected to shuffle a few metres with your leg hanging off to the piste in order to get helicoptered off the mountain?
Yes - unless yopur insurance ocvers you for off-piste rescue without a guide!
So what happens then when the medics turn up and some do gooder says "yeh I saw him take a tumble right there between the pistes in the off piste....." ?
www
New and improved me
OldAndy
reply to 'Offpiste advice for noobies' posted Dec-2012
Tony_H wrote:....which of course it doesnt.OldAndy wrote:Tony_H wrote: The problem is, if you are skiing between pistes and have an accident, are you expected to shuffle a few metres with your leg hanging off to the piste in order to get helicoptered off the mountain?
Yes - unless yopur insurance ocvers you for off-piste rescue without a guide!
So what happens then when the medics turn up and some do gooder says "yeh I saw him take a tumble right there between the pistes in the off piste....." ?
If you want to ski off-piste then buy cover that is appropriate!
www
Snow dance !!! my snow dance on youtube
Tony_H
reply to 'Offpiste advice for noobies' posted Dec-2012
OldAndy wrote:Tony_H wrote:....which of course it doesnt.OldAndy wrote:Tony_H wrote: The problem is, if you are skiing between pistes and have an accident, are you expected to shuffle a few metres with your leg hanging off to the piste in order to get helicoptered off the mountain?
Yes - unless yopur insurance ocvers you for off-piste rescue without a guide!
So what happens then when the medics turn up and some do gooder says "yeh I saw him take a tumble right there between the pistes in the off piste....." ?
If you want to ski off-piste then buy cover that is appropriate!
This is the whole crux of it.....whats off piste and what isnt? Between the pistes, itinerary routes, ski routes, etc.
I'm quite happy doing those at the moment, which I hadnt considered required additional insurance before now.
www
New and improved me
Topic last updated on 18-December-2012 at 06:01