J2Ski Forum Posts and Replies by pavelski

What is Pavel up to, you ask once you read title of this course?

I have to accelerate course since I you will not "hear" from me for some time ( two-three weeks)!

I will assume you have a old ski as "practice ski. You have "calibrated" the iron and you have the basic tools.

The first step is to clean ski with shop rag. I use a paper type paper roll special for mechanics or shop workers. It is thicker and seems to "catch" all metal pieces. I also never use same piece over!

Do visual verification of ski and bindings for damage! I will send to students the many cuts , de-laminations, breaks etc...that some skis "suffered".

Most modern bindings are well designed and are robust, however the screws seem to loosen over time so visually check them! If you have the Rossi racing units (based on the Look design, with round table base) the rear long screws do weaken! Check them every month!

Turn ski over so base is facing ceiling. visually check base. If you have small scratches no problem! If you have serious grooves you will learn later how to either fill in groove with Ptex 'noodles' or cut out section and replace with a whole new section!

I like to use a 200 grit sand block to get a nice "groovy" base with all lines parallel from tip to tail. Of course if you have previous wax you must brush off old wax with stiff brush. I use a roto brush which is a round brush on metal shaft powered with a drill since I often have 15 pair to do!
Just saves time!

First golden Guidelines
Always start with course to fine in brushes and paper
Always work with same tools so that you get to know tools
Always use minimum pressure. It is better to do 10 passes then to try to do one with coarse hard force

Remember this is a clean up! You want a clean ski base!
So be free with paper towel!

Look at ski edges. Then feel ski edges with finger. Do not look at edges while you pass your finger over edges. You want to learn to "feel" a uniform sharp ski edge!

I find my sense of touch is superior!

Note damage sections with black marker! You will have three types of damage. Dings, which are inner ski edge "grooves" or valleys. Burrs, which are very sharp and irregular outward sections and serious edge deviations.

Those sections must be "cleaned" since they are problematic if you use just a file. Without getting technical your ski edges have a "hardness" level measured in a Rockwell Scale" Oncer you hit a rock, cement etc..that section gets even more hard! You must use a Diamond stick or a tool made for this function!

Another golden guideline.
Once you start this process, NEVER BUT NEVER pass finger over ski edge. You have now metal pieces that are like knives which will cut you, infect you etc...
From now on use only paper towels!

If you get fanatic like me, buy a small jewelers magnifying glass and look at area you work on!

Dings which go inward must be passed to make end sections even. Do not try to "take out" dings since you will have a "wavy" ski edge.

Serious edge damage ie deviations are better repaired by pro!

Once you have "clean" even ski you must check the relationship of the base material - that white or black plastic material and the two metal edges.

This is where your TRUE BAR come into play!
There are two techniques used. You decide which you like!

I like to place ski on my shoulder with base facing up and tip towards light source. Pass your true bar from tip to tail looking at interface zone just below the true bar.

On a good ski you should see a very thin uniform line of light, or no light.

On a poor ski you will see two varied lines.
One in which the center has more light. This is called concaved ski

On the other you will see more light at edges and no light at center. This is called convex ski!

All ski site have an illustration of this. I will send to students some illustations !

A small discussion is in order here!
New ski design has changed a great deal the skiing world. More than you think. Atomic since 2006 produces some skis with a slight concave base. The engineers are trying all sorts of ways to make your skiing easier and giving more performance!
Another golden rule which seems to be changing! No one at Atomic seems to be able to explain to me why this concave base is so! ( on some models)! I have spoken to the Wintersteiger company to see what they do about this! Again no clear responce.

So if you go to any ski shop and have your concaved designed Atomics stone grounded you will have a perfectly flat base!

Such is the state of affairs!

I have a pair of SL 12 Atomics and I keep that slight concave feature! You decide what you want!


Many skiers forget which is which. Convex/concave. Here is a hint. CAVE means going INTO something. A concave base is going into the ski!

If you have a convex ski, you must sand down Ptex base material. Here is where you MUST have a sanding block since you must have a uniform level. Never but never sand using just hands!

Start with 150 grit paper from tip to tail. Check ski base with true bar every 3-4 pass! Use minimal force since you do not want to make deep grooves!

Once you have flat ski base use 180 paper! Then 200 paper!


A concave base is another issue! I can show you how to use a serious Panzer file but I have found it is better to take skis to shop and have them do two passes on stone! It usually costs $10 and is good for a season. If some want to learn how to use Panzer file I will send them via PM instructions.

Remember again to clean base after every 2/3 pass. I will not repeat this so just remember to clean ski as you work! Not just at end of process!

Go ahead now. Get hands dirty and enjoy!

The next series of classes will be noted Lesson 6 : Getting ski ready A, B, C, and so on....

I am going to gamble!

I never usually gamble because I know what the statistical odds of winning. But I am going to gamble this time on you!


I will do this because I know two very important things about all of you;
1. You are skiers that want to learn
2. You are skiers that really want to be great tuners

Why I am going to gamble is that I know that the message in this class will not be "understood" by all! I am gambling that you will keep this class somewhere in your computer or print it so that as you "learn" more concepts and terms you will understand the importance of the three questions all tuners must ask themselves.

1.What wax to use
2.What structure type to make
3.What angle to have on edges

I also am gambling that those who have their files ready and irons calibrated will by "patient" with me and allow me one more class with terms, concepts and issues!

I am doing this because very relevant questions were asked about snow, how to tune and wax a ski in varied conditions and not just in ice!

I have the dice....here it goes. I hope I hit 7 and we all win!

Once you have all learned to do the basic procedures ( filing, structuring, waxing) you will have to decide; what kind of wax to use, how to structure base and what angle to file side and base edge. Those three questions above!

I can not be beside you while you do this. You will have to decide for your needs and your conditions. To make this decision you must understand some very important issues and concepts that Jan and Ise brought up!

Allow me to introduce these concepts in a very "different way" but I promise you that it will in the end of this class relate to tuning and variable ski conditions.

Please be patient with me!

I assume and accept that we all want "happiness"! We want to feel we make good ,,, no "correct" decisions. So it is in ski tuning,,,you will see.

When you meet a girl you will have to make a decision if it is THE girl for you! So you "collect" information about her. Her tastes. Her dress! Her looks. Her interests! You try to get as much information about her that you can so that you can confirm you decision ,,ie to be happy with her!


If you want to buy a new house. You try to get all sorts of information about this house; cost, location, neighbors, age, size, etc...So that you will be happy there.


One more example and you will see where I am going!

If you are planning a ski tour for 3 days of camping, skiing and climbing, you will take in all sorts of information such as weather, equipment, food, safety material, etc... Because you want the trip to a success and thus you will be happy.

When you tune a ski you must also take in all sorts of information in order to make a decision! We all do this "intuitively" In technical terms this is called, "making a valid decision" In plain language it means is your decision "on the mark"!

In the tuning context it means "will the skis perform"!

Here is a golden rule! In life situations, be it a girl , a house, a computer program etcc... The more relevant information you collect,,,the better will your decision be!
That is called content validity!

In ski tuning what is the "important information" Jan mentioned some;
1. Snow conditions
2. Snow type
3. Temperature
4. Humidity
5. etc...


Here is now the 7 that magic number on dice! The thing you must all remember! You must decide how many sources of information you will use to make your decision on wax type and base structure!

I will teach you the procedures and some general guidelines ( not rules). You must put it all together based on your region your needs!

I will be there and I hope all of you will help each other in the coming months to make a "valid decision" on wax types and wax companies. You will recall that I did say that I do not sell products in this class! You will have to find the waxes that are "acceptable" for you!

I will tell you what I use, how I use it and how I select my waxes and techniques for that varied skiing conditions. Each of you will have to decide if I am relevant and valid for your skiing!

Let me be concrete! Pretend you have a bow and arrow and you must hit the target! You will decide on the size of that target! Nothing is free so if you are too demanding chances are you will miss that tiny target!

What relevance is this for skiing and tuning!
Remember I said to you all that this course is geared for recreational skiers? So the information you collect to tune should be more "generous", more flexible, more at the macro level rather than at the micro level!
In short,,,,make the target bigger so you will hit it!

In even more concrete terms it means, do not get lost in all sorts of minor ( for you) issues! Get to know you area!
get a great weather site geared for skiers and learn to read the ski conditions.

And yes you will sometimes be "off" and the wax will stick! That is why you must have a Log to note this!

There are some basic guidelines we all have to consider. They are in all good tuning sites like Toko, Kuss, etc...
At end of course you will all get a list from me!


Now to end this "heavy" class remember that if you do not understand all this, it is because I did not use relevant examples or terms. It is my fault so please send PM! I will try to find other examples!

In a short sentence, soon you will have to decide FOR YOU how to adapt, modify ski or apply wax! I will only suggest and share how I do it.

You must learn to get that right girl, that right house, that right program for you!


I promise no more "lecturing" let us get our hands dirty

Monday we will do initial base prep and serious filling!

Phew!!!!

The number one element to consider above all others is, function! There is a famous saying in the skiing world, "form follows function"! Essentially it means that the "look, the logo, the name is secondary to function.

This said Spyder products are aimed for high end expert/racer skiers. It has an image ( which it developed over the years) of clean, racing, very technical ski products. They also stand behind their products, so if you have a are problem with snap, zipper, etc....they will fix or replace unit!

Let us be honest,, in skiing , as in other sports there is an element of "the look'. The image! Young skiers look at what their idols wear and use them as "models"! That is what product marketing is all about!

There are other great ski products. Spyder happens to be one of the best along with; North Face, Patagonia, etc..

Think long term. If a jacket is still great after 10 years and still "in-style" then is it that expensive! Think also cross-activity clothing. I do a great deal of winter camping, and other outdoor activities. Typically it can get -30 and that does not stop out family outings! So functionality is key and yes Spyder does have an image which I like!

You can get same quality however in other brands! Just know what to look for! Here are some parameters to consider on any ski jacket;
1.Windproof
2.Waterproof
3.High collar integrated with hood . I like my hood inserted in collar.
4.Cut. wide chest area, wide shoulder, tight cuffs
5. Extra strong shoulder area
6.Pockets. This is where you see the detail and quality.
7.Quality zippers YKK
8.Collar inside has polar fleece material with a flap just for back of neck so snow does not enter via collar
9. At cuff area where hands come out, special glove-like part which allows thumb to be inserted so that ski gloves and coat are 'mate" with not cold spots.
10. Powder cuff near waist so snow does not come up jacket.
11. Inner zipper for layer approach ( ie inner liner which come off)
12. Vent zippers under arm or in front of chest area.
13. Ipod pocket and channel for ear piece.
14. Extra wide front collar zipper section for polar fleece neck warmer
15. Rear pocket at lower part of jacket
16. All seams heat or glue sealed
17. Zipper front flap well over zipper with velcro closure
18. Snaps all "heavy duty" type ( with 10 extra in pockets)
19. Adjustable hood strap at top of hood
20. Large and wide hood flap with two snaps so that chin is well protected.
21. Adjustable wrist cuff collars with velcro
22. Ski pass pocket
23. Key clip inside pocket.
24. Special hole in left or right breast pocket for communication equipment
25. Built-in avalanche recovery units


Now the last element! Great style and color that will be "in" for 10 years and so you will never win the sinful ski clothing contest!
If you what more advice from a women try Greenskier. She will not doubt advise you well!

Typically you can get such a jacket for about $200-300, USA if you know where to look and when to buy!

Ise,
Thanks for pictures since it clears the issue about those front brakes. What I am referring to are two shanks very much like screwdrivers which also go under front binding area. At end they have a slight bend with plastic piece.
They are 3mm from ski edge!
They are not for "off-piste" skiing but rather sold as "extra stopping protection" in ski resorts.
A waste of money!

Great pictures! What kind of camera do you have?

Pavel

I have had some time to think of the issues you both presented. I had two thoughts at same time once I had read both comments.
What to answer,,, ie content and how to answer,,ie context!

Let me explain. The goal of this course is to introduce basic ski tuning to skiers who want to go more than ski shop tuning. They want to understand how to tune fro recreational skiing. The course outline presents this.

I teach at a university several graduate courses relating to evaluation. it is my passion like skiing is my passion. I am not sure which is dominant! Often I say I do the formal teaching to pay for my addiction. In that context the course content is published by the university and I must follow this content in order for students to obtain Masters or Phd. I have a legal duty to present to students what is published and I do! How I do it is my choice and often I am considered a "little" too entertaining or "off the wall"!

I choose to share with others my experiences as a ski tuner via this medium. The site administrator accepted to provide space. It is free and so we have in class a great divergent group in age, ethnicity, competence and education. The youngest is 14 and the oldest did not give me his age so you can appreciate that I am constantly trying to use the KISS principle ( Keep It Simple Stupid). I do not want the class to "stumble" over micro- issues! I do not want class to focus on me! I do not want to be the "expert" because I am not!
I just want to present how I tune skis and then let students accept or reject this or that procedure for them!

I am trying to reach all the class, thus I do not want to have a "class discussion on important "technical" point that will be discussed in ski tuning 364. Already I am hesitating to present the topics; variance , distribution and sampling which must be presented once we get to wax selection and factors related to this selection.

I think you understand now the context part of the answer.

Now for the content part.
Both comments are central to ski tuning. I am not an engineer or chemist or physicist. However my peers are and I am know to ask irrelevant questions which they think are not that important until they think more about it. I will give you both more detailed answers, I promise to even send you either PHd thesis or published articles. Just give my time.

Also I will send them via PM since I do not want to have this discussion in class. I found in other sites that it creates a long cyber-technical debate which in effect deals with the issue, "how many angels are on a head of a pin"! Besides I am sure there are skiers who are more intelligent than I who have the technical knowledge and vocabulary to clarify the two issues you mentioned.

In conclusion, I will find some sources and "experts" who will answer your issues and I will send via PM or snail mail relevant information.

Please continue making comments. That is how our brains stay sharp and young! Please keep responding, that is why this site is far superior than others since it respects divergent thought!

Respectfully,
Pavel

You both present excellent points.
First let me please ask you to always ask questions for clarification. As stated in the intro if you did not get it , and both of you are smart skiers then "others" who are more shy did not!

Allow me just a few "moments" of thought on how to approach the subject and present it from another angle!

Both of you also presented the topic and the criticism of my presentation very well since you touched on at least two topics which in this Tuning 101 course may "confuse" the students. That said , the issues are relevant. The questions deserve an answer and clarification.

Just to leave you with some food for thought here are two issues; the molecular level of that zone and the varied ski conditions.


The molecular level issue.
Off the top of my head,one example comes to mind that Ise will relate to. If ever you have taken a course in avalanche identification and avoidance you will surel accept that the cornerstone to moder procedure is thye concept of "sheer zone"! That unstable layer hidden!

Can you accept that at molecular level such a zone also exists!

As far as Jan's comments let me please consider how to answer him since the class is listening and I do not want to "change" the focus from ski tuning to our discussion!
I may send you Jan some results undertaken by the American Ski Team with an embedded laser beam in a ski to determine some parameters you refer to. I must contact author of study for permission to "pass along information".

Pavel

Before we begin class just some small "administrative" issues to present.

First a small reminder that you all had "homework" to do and I do note the feedback for the final class mark and prize! ( and diploma)

I still do not have de Loco and Jamser's email so that I can send some tuning material and pictures.

I also would like to welcome back Jan who has changed school districts, but since he was "enrolled" before his move the school administrators of this course accepted him! Jan will try to catch up with all the work we did!

Also I have received several emails asking to be part of this class and thus obtain all the "class notes and documents " that the registered students obtain. Sorry all requests.


The class title is actually a teaser! ( You will get to know me and find out that I try to keep students interested with various teaching techniques)
In fact before you start your tuning wash hands and clean skis. Not so much because of germs and viruses but because you do not want to pass along ; chemicals, grease, etc...If you are like me I do all sorts of work around the house and use strong cleaners, lithium grease, boiled linseed oil etc... All are contaminates which can cause problems.
I will show you later how to "read" wax once it is melted on a ski base. As it changes from liquid to solid state you can "see" areas that are contaminated often with just your own body oils or shop dust, or pieces of steel edges!

I will assume you all have that old ski and a clean work area!

As far as tools if you are just start to learn,, just get basic tools which I will list and gradually increase your inventory! I suggest you get a plastic tool box with a tray which can come out of the box! I like the kind that has many sections for various small tools!

May I suggest also that many of the tools that you will need can be bought in various stores other than ski shops! I have found that ski shops and ski tuning companies have prices that are much higher ! So for same tool, and I mean same tool you can have a 10-20% difference!
I find great scrub plastic pads in my local grocery store!
I find great sanding paper in my local auto parts store.
I find great files in my machinists shop!
I get 50-100 plastic scrappers for my classes in a hobby store who has left over plexiglass.
I get 50-100 metal scrappers from left over machine shop. They will pressure cut all metal for free!
The machine shop will also give me 50 true bars ( that are really true) for free from left over metal bars.
Now before I get all sorts of emails about how tools must be perfectly calibrated, let me just say that all machinists I have dealt with are perfectionist to the ,002" since their job depends on it!

My point is that getting all the tuning equipment does not have to be so expensive! Think outside the box!

Let me give you an example.
One of the essential tools you will have to buy is a diamond stick. Once you get "hooked on tuning" you will have several! One company supplies ski shops but also sporting goods shops ( for sharping knives).
Imagine the same diamond stick sells $10 more in a ski shop! Look around for quality and tool price!

Do not buy cheap! It is dangerous and on the long run you are not saving money!

As I mentioned previously get an "old iron"! I modify mine by installing a longer and better electrical wire!

I also test it in an old ski BEFORE I use it! This was your homework! You do this to "test" the reference dial ( if you have one) and also you learn the possible problems if you ever leave an iron on; a bench, a ski base, rag, etc...

Never never but never leave an iron plugged if you leave work area. This is very important for the younger students. Once you start working with iron do not answer cell phone, go watch TV, get a drink, see friend!!!!

I get sample ceramic tiles and I insist that all irons be placed on these tiles. Get to know your iron! I have several and each has its personality and heat zone! That is why you have a "practice ski"!

For a complete list of basic tools just visit my previous class ( 2006) under TOOLS. I can also send you all an excellent site that lists all tools my level of competence.

You must learn to use each tool effectively! That will take more time than you think! Just sanding or filing has its "secrets"! For example typically poor tuners use their hands and fingers as "holders" of the paper. If you watch master car body men/women they all use a rubber block which has a half moon top section and the lips have tiny pins which hold the paper.
My is 30 years old and still going! It feels good and it sands great since it has a perfect level plane. Cost $4!

For now what you will need for next class are the following;
1. Iron
2.paper towels ( I like the shop towels, thicker, stronger)
3.gummy block
4.diamond stick
5.true bar
6.vices ( for skis not larger shop vices)
I have a set of old wooden vices that are still functional that was given to me by an old cross - country skier called Jack Rabbit! That is another story and class! So Jan , in your spare time , if you want you can build yourself a set!
7. ceramic tile ( larger the better)
8.Old carpet piece! Your homework is finding out,,,what Pavel would do with an old piece of carpet 5'x14"
9.Metal and plastic scrapper
10. 6" mill bastard files ( Yes that is exactly what they are called)
11. Sheets of sanding paper (for metal) with following grades; 100, 180, 200,
12. Special sanding pads made for plaster joints. These are used by plasterers and look like square meshed pads. Far superior to sanding paper for some jobs.
13. Sanding blocks. These are foam or hard plastic blocks with surfaces for sanding. Found in large hardware stores.
14. All purpose ski wax! Get cheapest for practice. Not candle wax or other types of wax. For the students will be sending you a document on this topic soon!
15.Apron. If you have no male ego issues an old one from your wife or in-laws is great! I am sure they would love a new one from you!
16. Power bar. I like to be safe so all my tools are plugged to a power bar with internal fuse.


I am sure to have forgotten some tools, however with this list it should be a nice shopping trip! In the case of de Loco and Jamser you can share some tools but you will soon discover that you want YOUR tool box and YOUR TOOLS. My sons never seemed to clean the iron my way, or set the files in their place. So at 12 they had their tool box!

Hope this was no too boring of a class. Remember your base burning homework and keep those hands clean!

Oh,,,remember momework !!! That carpet! What is it for?