New skis and old boots

Dave Mac wrote:

Tony, I would still consider having the boots set up for you. Something maybe has changed, but I re-iterate my point that if they worked before, it ought not to take too much change to make them right now, particularly since the issue is too roomy, and not too tight.

Everything I've heard about modern boot fitting suggest that slightly too small is likely to have a better outcome than a little too big when tweaking the fit.

I understand that everyone's idea of good fit is different and really all that matters is getting the skis to perform. At the same time I know I suffer a less than super comfortable (not so much uncomfortable as very very snug) fit sometimes because I can feel the difference in performance. I have messed about in at least a dozen different pairs of boots over the last few years (a few, the same boot in different sizes) and have found a compromise in fit means a compromise in performance. It would be hard to notice the often subtle differences that the fit makes unless you are able to try out a bunch of boots.

Tony, as dave Mac suggested earlier it may not so much be the fit that has changed as your demands on the boot. It could be that you are applying a lot more pressure to the tongue than you had in the past. A fit that had held your foot seemingly firmly while skiing passively might now feel loose as you load and unload the front of the ski (this will also really pack in the heel pocket).

My guess is that you'll end up buying new boots. So don't invest too much time and energy flogging a dead horse. Try this. Find a store with the boot you like or similar and try on a size smaller. Wear thin socks to allow for packing in and use the shop's trial footbeds (superfeet). Pressure the tongue as you now know how to. If when you press forward hard on the tongue, your toes are able to straighten, you most likely have the right size boot.

Trencher

This is the same problem I'm having with mine. I put away my Blizzard firebirds for my new Elans. I still have my Salamon Irony's. I got mine at a local sporting goods place (didn't know any better) and the firebirds and irony's made a great fit. When I switched over to my Elans I noticed I had ALOT of movement in my heel. I spoke to many people and asked them what was up and they said they were my boots. I hear there is a difference between higher and a lower level boot. Higer levels have less and a more dense liner in them vs a thicker one. I hear they are for more control. By no means am I going to get up right this second and buy a new pair :lol: but it's good to know what I'm looking for

IceGhost The Irony are a good boot, especially the 7.5 and the 8 (with the fur liners- wish I could get some). My wife and daughter have them. To give you an idea of size, my wife wears 7.5 US street shoes and has a very good fit in a 23.5 mondo Irony boot (with a little heel lift and good footbeds). It wasn't until her 24.5s packed in and her feet were rattling around in them that she finally believed me about how they should feel when new. Now the new boots have packed in and she is very happy.

Also if it's just your heel that's loose, try some heel lift under the foot bed. An aftermarket footbed (like superfeet) will have a little more heel lift than the original ones. Ski stores have trial footbeds you can try in your boots to see if it helps befor you buy.

Trencher

Dave Mac wrote:Ise,

You use the term "footbeds". I have not heard this before. Most sportsmen/persons bottom arch changes shape over time. So if you have a gap under your arch, and buckles clamping the foot down, it isn't difficult to see where pain may emerge.

My boots are standard Raichle, not foamed.

Incredible, maybe brands like Conformable and Superfeet have'nt made it across the border to Scotland. I've been using custom moulded Footbeds since the mid to late 1980's.
1. Buy boots and get them fitted.
2. Thow out dismally floppy peice of plastic made in the vague shape of someone else's foot.
3. Have custom footbed made by variety of methods to support the shape of my foot, and correct pronation/supination whatever.
4. If the foot changes shape over time, ask fitter to re-mould footbed.

Result
1. Comfort
2. Control
3. Support for the structure of the foot.

Tony_H
Warm temps will have made a big difference to the performance of the boot plastic. If you want to stiffen the boot shell, leave the shell outside overnight and take the liner indoors...the next morning will be a different experience, for a while anyway!
If you have a decent footbed inside your boot, it's quite possible to ski with the boot completely undone.

Dave Mac wrote:Ise, I obviously could not say if my case is exceptional. Had a chat with a couple of ski buddies on the issue today, and they both concurred with me that they would not expect to have any pain problems with boots. I don't accept that this is luck. My wife also bought boots on the same day as me, and she too has never had problems, in terms of pain/breaking in.

Maybe...this is something to do with the boot design. You correctly identified that we bought our boots 15 years ago, from the fact that they were rear entry.

Those older boots user liners that don't pack as much, one of the changes in boots over the years has been the use of thermo-forming liners and softer liners to help get a good fit.

I actually already guessed you have Raichle boots and should have said so to astound and impress :D They were pretty much state of the art and probably the high point of rear-entry boots. Nevertheless, I'd not get confused about the state of the current products, most modern boots are still better than any older boots for 99.99% of skiers. FYI, a company has started making Flexons again using original designs, http://www.fulltiltboots.com/

Tony_H wrote:My boots fitted like a sock when I got them, and have done the weeks I have ski'd in them, until last week, and even then there was no pain, but an observation that I was doing them up tighter than usual, and sometimes onto the furthest adjustment, leaving nowhere to go. Like I said, no pain or discomfort, but they felt looser.

That's really just screaming that they didn't fit to start with. You need to try the shell test, as mentioned above, and determine if the shell actually fits or not. Did the "fitter" do that or not? If the shell fits then it's an option to get new liners but I doubt for a recreational boot it's worth it, they're cheap enough to buy particularly end of season.

You would expect some discomfort for the first week or so as the liner settle and packs to your foot a bit, that would be a fairly even pressure all over the foot. I can see this is a real issue if you're skiing two or three weeks a year and you hardly want to spend a week feeling uncomfortable but I guess you can go to a indoor slope or something.

For me, I think many "fitters" are actually guys who work in shops and I'm about as likely to take their advice as I am from a lad in Dixons or PC World. So it's worth finding these experts. Bandit is a walking directory of UK boot fitters, she can probably recommend someone who can help out. The guys she knows will rescue your current boots if they can.

Useful advice and opinions, thanks.
For the record, my boots are Atomic B Tech Sport. I bought them in Austria in 2007. I have ski'd 4 full weeks in them, including last week. They felt really comfortable, and I noticed a huge difference in my ability wearing them, compared to hire boots. I subsequently bought my first pair of skis (Blizzard V Matic Firebird) a week later, and ski'd 2 full weeks on them before selling them and moving up to a more advanced ski (Blizzard Sigma X Cross 10). The boots always felt comfortable before, and I started the day on a low setting when tightening the boots, and occassionally had to make slight adjustments during the day to keep them feeling snug and responsive, but never up to the tightest notch.
However, last week, as mentioned before, it was very warm, the slopes were very hard packed and icy early on, and a little dumpy later on in the day, plus I was on the better skis, which I have to say made a massive improvement to my skiing.
However, I was very quickly doing the boots right up last week, as I began to feel as if my feet were loose in them on the settings I normally have them on.
I really dont want to have to fork out for new boots, hence asking the question on here. I was more interested to hear whether this sort of thing is common, and what can be done, not just buying new boots at a few hundred quid which I currently dont have spare!!!!
The main problem areas seem to be the toes and the ankle. I usually do the toes up to the 3rd notch, so they are firm and responsive, but last week I was on the tightest notch. No pain at all, but noticeably havign to do them tighter earlier in the day. Around the ankle, I was beginning to feel more movement too. I never felt out of control, or that my feet were swimming at all, but just aware that there was more movement on the same nothces than ever before.

Should I simply put this down to the conditions, the new skis, my improved performance and maybe try an insole, or do I really need new boots as ISE seems to think?

I think your boots are from the Atomic "B" range. They'll be an 80, 90 100, etc designation. They normally fit well for folks who have wide feet with a high instep (well defined arch). Spacious toe box.
My OH tried the B100 for fit and needed a 24.5 for a decent fit. Cracking boot though, I think he was disappointed that the size he needed was'nt available.

I believe, IIRC, these have a heat form liner.
Were your boot liner's and also possibly the shells heat moulded to your feet, when you had a fitting?
The space around the ankle might be taken up by attaching pads to the shell inner. Going for a heel lift via a footbed (padding, carpet tiles whatever)will shorten the achilles tendon, move your balance forward and affect your stance.

BTW I'm not a boot fitter, and I can only suggest you get yourself along to see a decent one pronto.

Tony_H wrote:
Should I simply put this down to the conditions, the new skis, my improved performance and maybe try an insole, or do I really need new boots as ISE seems to think?

Just a proper foot-bed might do it, all depends on the your foot shape etc etc. If you have to put two foot beds in then they don't fit in all likelihood. If you have a very high arch you need a proper foot bed anyway with stabilising blocks in the arch area. If you have a really, really high arch it'll impact everyday life and you'll need support there as well in other shoes.