J2Ski Forum Posts and Replies by Trencher

Ian Wickham wrote:Hot off the press Snapzzy's afternoon run ........

I now realise that you were just slipping the course in the video :lol:

I did mean camber serves a purpose as in cam/roc. I do believe that full camber will be less common eventually. The best camber skis out at the moment while not have full tip/tail rocker, do seem to have a softer flex in the tip and tail. I think this acts in a similar way to adding a little rocker in terms of carving edge hold. It maybe that it in this way camber will still be around.

verbier_ski_bum wrote:I alsways thought that if a ski has at least a rocker in the tip, it's 'rockered' as opposed to 'banana' skis that are "fully rockered". I also understood that early rise, low rise are just variations of the design, as different companies patent it under different names by making slight alterations to the profile. I noticed how many manufacturers now add rocker to their skis including to their front side skis so there is definitely a trend and it can only be explained that it indeed makes skiing easier in general (just as they made powder more accessible to more skiers) easier to ski = more people start to ski = more skis sold or similar logic. It can well be that in a decade full-cambered skis will follow straight skis and will be only taken out on a "retro" days that resorts sometimes have (just like straight skis now).

I think what we are seeing in ski design is part of the new way of thinking that came about with the internet. Conventional wisdom is a lost expression these days. Designers are thinking laterally, cross benching, and out of the box At the same time, some basic rules still exist. Camber serves a purpose.

The first time I ran GS gates at a race clinic, I had such an adrenalin rush I couldn't sleep that night.

Do you mean there was a spacer under each footbed (inner sole)?

You could cut new spacers from something that isn't too spongy or too rigid, table mats, cork tiles.....

OldAndy wrote:
But .......
Having someone on hand who actually knows what this or that particular ski will actually mean when being skied on by a particular skier is going to be so important.
As the technology gets more advanced and new bits and bobs come in the shear choice is going to make things very confusing.

And that's the rub. Last year I talked to a few different ski company reps who had no clue. These are the guys that were traveling the country for various ski shows. When I mentioned it was strange that SL skis did not have tip/tail rocker, they all said (looking at me as if I were stupid)that it doesn't work for SL. As it happens, next season they will be explaining why everyone needs new SL skis with tip and tail rocker.

Now I have to say, I would be as clueless as everyone else, If I weren't a snowboarder. Most of this technology has been around a while in snowboards, and some manufacturers openly discuss details :shock:

It's such a complicated subject. Even that video is confusing. That ski is not rockered, it has regular camber with tip and tail rocker.

In addition to the attributes talked about in the video, this particular design is also used for racing and high performance carving. The difficult part is that in order for this camber rocker profile to work best, other aspects of design like sidecut and flex must work in unison. So far some skis have failed in this regard. However this is where performance ski design is heading. As has been the case with all high performance skis, quality construction is as important as shape design.

At the other end of the scale, Skis like the Rossi Alias 74 which have tip rocker, are not intended as performance skis at all. In this case the tip rocker moves the point at which a ski turn is initiated further back from the tip. This means the ski requires less forward pressure and effort to turn. Rossi call it "auto turn" and there are many other names for it.

So why have camber at all? Fully rockered skis work well is powder, and are popular for terrain park use. On piste however they do not perform well. Camber is needed to resist the bending of the skis, and put power into turns.

Adding to the confusion, most of these skis have something called a low rise tip (not to be confused with an early rise tip). The low rise tip doesn't need to turn up as much as tips on camber skis because the tip rocker is already lifting the whole front of the ski. When the skis is tipped to high angles and bent in a turn, the low rise tip blends with the curve of the ski to increase the effective edge.

One thing you will notice when using these skis is that when the ski runs flat, the tips will flap. This flapping stops as soon as the ski is tipped a few degrees, but will disconcert some skiers who associate flapping with noodle skis.

Another matter of great confusion is the sidecut radius quoted by the manufacturers. This number no longer gives an accurate idea of how the ski will turn. The curve on the side of ski may now be made up of varying and very different radiuses. The manufacturers give the average in the specs, but when these multi radius sidecuts are combined with the new rocker/camber profiles, the actually effective turn radius may be much smaller. Hopefully in the future ski manufacturers will not treat us as stupid and give the details of a ski's sidcut design, Until then the only way to know is to ski it. Again for these sidecuts to work well, the flex (stiffness) and camber/rocker have to compliment each other.

Hopefully, this gives an idea of what is happening to ski design and how complicated it can be.

Of course lacking any authoritative writings on recent ski design, this is just my interpretation. Hopefully Swingbeep can correct any errors.

AJMCA wrote:

Trencher wrote:

AJMCA wrote:Hope I haven't gone off thread Mr Admin!

Too much on topic - you can't consider yourself a regular yet. Maybe next time try adding a couple of paragraphs about the ice cream they serve at the snow dome, or the motor way traffic getting there :wink:

OOH I am sorry Teacher ! I mean Trencher.
Paragraphs- right ok ! Capital letters and full stops ? Full sentences !!?

I didn't write as much as some of Ally G's or Gooseh's posts. :(
Just got a bit enthusiastic after reading some of the earlier posts on this thread and picked up on some of them about falls, wipeouts, learning ski technique and indoor ski slopes.
The nice thing about this forum is most people are friendly and welcoming and don't seem to be concerned as to whether a person posting is a 'regular' or not.

I hope you were reading my post as a joke, as I am reading your post as a joke (I hope) :lol: