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One for the instructors...

One for the instructors...

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Started by Hoop in Ski Chatter - 51 Replies

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Bandit
reply to 'One for the instructors...' posted Dec-2008

Hoop wrote:
bandit wrote:
If you or your friends lose control,hit another skier and injure them on French ski slopes, it is likely that a Gendarme will be called and statements taken. 3 years ago I was invited to press charges for assault after a woman crashed into me on a French ski slope.


That seems nuts. It's an inherently dangerous sport, and that could quite feasibly happen to anyone purely accidentally.


If you assault another person in the street, you would likely be arrested. Why should skiing be any different?

If you cause injury to another person whilst driving your car, you would expect the police to show up.Why should skiing be different?

Tony_H
reply to 'One for the instructors...' posted Dec-2008

Brimster wrote:Hoop

I can only talk from experience of being one of those learners on holiday with others who were more than able at skiing. I have to say that I put myself into ski school in a morning and then met up with friends in the afternoon and they would then take me back down runs i had done that morning or runs that were of a similar level. At no time did my friends give me any real instruction it was more very generic advice and giving me the confidence and practice to continue.

This system worked for us all as I got the lessons whilst they got to tour the area and get the serious skiing out of their system in the morning and thereafter it was a chilled afternoon for them and more practice for me.

This year the shoe was on the other foot in that I took my best mate skiing for the first time but once again I insisted on her going into ski school but to avoid any problems/issues I also put myself into ski school at the same time (this had a dual purpose for me however as i was able to improve my technique but also it meant I wasn't skiing by myself which I try to avoid doing a lot of just from a safety aspect). At lunch I would meet up with my mate and in an afternoon we would ski together for awhile and I would give her odd hints that I could see on her technique or things that may help her in the skiing mindset but her "instruction" came from her lessons I only served the purpose of giving her more confidence in what she had learned in ski school by doing the same or similar runs again.

Its a difficult situation for you but I do think your mates will benefit ten times over from having at least a few lessons and then just practicing it form themselves. Surely as mates they will understand your predicament....!? :roll:




TA DA !!!!

I think Davey Macca also suggested something similar, and I have to say that when I was learning, I was in ski school twice a day, and in the gaps between, I was joined by other experienced skiers in my party for our own little tour around the local slopes, which gave me the opportunity to unwind, realx a little, and fall over as much as possible without feeling totally embarrassed.

I have to say, Hoops' mates really should go into lessons, and if it means Hoop having some too, all the better all round.

Hoop - I totally understand your situation, and I dont think anyone is trying to suggest you do things differently, but you have to take the pressure off yourself, or I can guarantee the holiday will be nothing short of a disaster. Skiing holidays with such mixed abilities can be difficult, as for us more experienced people, its hard to remember that people dont actually know how to get off chairlifts for example!!!!

I hope your friends see sense above cost saving, and see the bigger picture, which is that forking out now for a weeks worth of lessons will ensure better times ahead on the slopes.
I really hope it all works out for you.
www  New and improved me

Brucie
reply to 'One for the instructors...' posted Dec-2008

This is all getting silly and off topic!!!

Bandit - In answer to your question. Ski-ing is different because it is a sport not a criminal activity. To constutute a crime requires MENS REA -

'actus non facit reum nisi mens sit rea'

which means that "the act does not make a person guilty unless the mind is also guilty".

Why have we developed into a whining society where there is no such thing as an accident!! :evil:
"Better to remain reticent and have people think one is an idiot, than to open ones mouth and remove all doubt"

Ise
reply to 'One for the instructors...' posted Dec-2008

Brucie wrote:This is all getting silly and off topic!!!

Bandit - In answer to your question. Ski-ing is different because it is a sport not a criminal activity. To constutute a crime requires MENS REA -

'actus non facit reum nisi mens sit rea'

which means that "the act does not make a person guilty unless the mind is also guilty".

Why have we developed into a whining society where there is no such thing as an accident!! :evil:


I think the point is that in Europe we've got civil responsibility so if you kick a rock down the hill and it hits someone you're held to be responsible, the UK common law doesn't quite run as clearly. That's why as bandit pointed out if you do ski into someone, or cycle into them in summer if you like, there's a good chance you'll be arrested.

Mens rea of course is common law and mostly applies in the UK and US and not so much in old world Europe.

You're right it's off topic, I think that's because there was a pretty clear consensus pretty quickly that getting landed teaching your mates to ski was a bad thing. A general discussion of liability etc is quite interesting.

Wanderer
reply to 'One for the instructors...' posted Dec-2008

Brucie wrote:This is all getting silly and off topic!!!

Bandit - In answer to your question. Ski-ing is different because it is a sport not a criminal activity. To constutute a crime requires MENS REA -

'actus non facit reum nisi mens sit rea'

which means that "the act does not make a person guilty unless the mind is also guilty".

Why have we developed into a whining society where there is no such thing as an accident!! :evil:


I think people are getting too deep into this - this is not an appropriate forum for a detailed consideration of the legal implications of "accidents" on the slopes and I see little point in peolle getting all het up about it. Especially, since I am presuming that we do not have too many legal experts and, in particular, experts on the different legal systems of France, Austria, etc.

For me, it comes down to common sense - yes, accidents will happen and people need to accept that this is part of the sport. However, this does not excuse reckless, out of control skiing by anybody :twisted:. Where people engaging in such behaviour injure others, then they should be held to account and to be honest, it is irritating that they so rarely will be :evil:. The same goes for skiing while drunk (and I mean drunk - not just a milligram over some administrative limit because you had a pint at lunchtime or a shot of rum in your hot chocolate :x).

Rant over - now back to the thread!

Hoop: Tony has given some good advice - don't get too worked up about the situation - its your holiday as well and you are entitled to enjoy yourself. A compelling case for lessons has been made repeatedly and you might want to let your mates know the concerns of your J2ski friends.

And, finally, do not underestimate the extreme limitations of people on skis for the first time. We quickly forget how difficult it was to simply stand up on snow without the skis drifting away on their own on even the most modest of slopes or how intimidating even the slowest little baby drag lift was.

Ise
reply to 'One for the instructors...' posted Dec-2008

Wanderer wrote:
I think people are getting too deep into this - this is not an appropriate forum for a detailed consideration of the legal implications of "accidents" on the slopes and I see little point in peolle getting all het up about it. Especially, since I am presuming that we do not have too many legal experts and, in particular, experts on the different legal systems of France, Austria, etc.


why is it the wrong forum? and why presume that someone else might not know something about it?

Brucie
reply to 'One for the instructors...' posted Dec-2008

Having attempted to draw a line under this tangential discussion, it would appear that some dogs wish to continue gnawing the bone!!

Ok, as ise says, lets not assume that people are talking from a position of legal weakness!

To my mind the question, in any enlightened legal system, revolves around culpability, i.e. 'an act so reckless as to show utter disregard for the consequences'.

In those circumstances I wholly concur with the 'black caps' who would string the miscreants up and throw away the key.

However, lets not make a presumption of legal involvement, when a show of remorse and an apology can easily defuse the situation.
( And end up with a friend made over a reconciliatory gluhwein or two!!)
"Better to remain reticent and have people think one is an idiot, than to open ones mouth and remove all doubt"

Tony_H
reply to 'One for the instructors...' posted Dec-2008

Brucie wrote:

However, lets not make a presumption of legal involvement, when a show of remorse and an apology can easily defuse the situation.
( And end up with a friend made over a reconciliatory gluhwein or two!!)


I dont think some people appreciate the potential seriousness of this situation. Try saying what you just said when you have had a collision and the other person is out cold and being put on a helicopter to be flown straight to hospital 20 miles away. Or try having someone say that to you when its you on the helicopter.
www  New and improved me

Edited 1 time. Last update at 18-Dec-2008

Topic last updated on 18-December-2008 at 16:34