Length of skis with full rocker

I am looking at buying my first set of skis. I have looked into different makes/models/shapes and have come up with the Volkl RTM 77. It seems to suit my ability and preferences. I have trailed a few different skis on a local slope but the conditions were limited so could not do a full test and could only trail one length (171cm). The question I have is what length to go for? I am 80kg and 185cm tall. I know that there is a trade up in ski length between stability at speed and tightness/ease of turns. My question is does the full rocker technology in the Volkl RTM range make this choice worse?

It seems that in a straight line there is less surface area on the snow meaning that at speed the ski is effectively shorter. But in a turn more of the ski comes into contact with the snow effectively making the ski longer. This seems to be the opposite of what you would want for speed and turns. Is my logic here correct or am I missing something. From the trial I liked the skis and they did feel better that all the other I tried but the logic above is making it hard for me to choose a length. The ski length charts/web sites seem to push me towards 171cm but this will not take into account the rocker so I am tempted with 176cm.

Any advice on this or suggested alternatives would be appreciated.

Interesting question.
No idea of the answer!
But ...
One of the knowledgable folks will be along shortly I am sure.

On the broader question I would be interested to know in what conditions you tested.
Snowdome?
Dry slope?
Bit of spring snow somewhere?
And what the competition was, with what you liked about the Volkl.

Can't have been the graphics :lol: (but I like the brighter the better for my sins - had a super pair of bright yellow and black Volkls years ago, great all round ski)

From reading the Volkl description of the ski, it isn't a full rocker ski, but has an early rise tip (or tip rocker). This does a couple of things for the performance of the ski. The edge engages further back than a conventional camber ski. This make turn initiation easier. The tip rocker has benefits when carving by by evening out the pressure edge distribution when carving. The slight rocker helps lift the tip in powder and soft snow, though it has nothing like the performance of a fully rockered ski in powder.

The performance at speed will have more to do with the construction, than the tip rocker. Many world cup GS skis have tip rocker now, so it can handle speed. The materials used and the design of the sidecut radius are most critical to stability. The sidecuts radius is mid range, so which length to choose depends mostly on your ability. If you can apply a lot of pressure and and get strong angles in turns, I would go longer, otherwise go shorter. If you are learning to carve turns, I would go shorter.

jwoodhouse,
An interesting question indeed !
There is no 'factual",,,objective answer since skiing sensations and desires are very personal but may I add some observations ?

First my criteria when I select my skis !

I look at what I want the ski to do for me.

I have three major categories

1. Powder ski That is serious +50 cm. powder.
I have two such skis. One for wide open heli type skiing where there are no bounderies thus radius might be up to 30 + meters. Length here is for floatation thus +180 cm range. No set edges here. No carve here. Just floating on clouds.
The second powder ski is more for "sous-bois",,glades skiing where you still are in powder but must make tighter turns thus shorter length and less radius. Mine are Fischers Watea 101 in the 180 range.

The second category for me is the "cruising " ski ! That GS cut "all out speed" ski. This is where edge control and tip flex are important. I like the 185-190 cm. range for me! The plate are really important here!

Finally the serious carvers. Those WC SL type skis which will go anywhere,,, where it is steep, narrow and icy ! All the WC Sl cut skis are great since they have a very specific performance range and are designed for the technical skiers,,,,but I prefer two models; The Head SL and The Fischer SL Pro. That is my choice. My sons will swear on other brands and we have many discussions about this,,, It is a personal choice !

In my opinion if you want a great powder ski ( just a powder ski),,yes go for full rocker but then make sure it is also long enough. Most powder beginner skiers tend to go for too short !
I will try to find the "formula" that a more intelligent skier developed to determine correct ski length for powder skis! He used the overall surface of the ski as the basis of his formula !

Your observations and conclusions are correct.
-Performance at speed will be more to do with construction than tip rocker,,,IF YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT GROOMED OR HARD SNOW ! In powder not sure !

-The "new " world cup skis issues is still open to debate and due to FIS changes all ski companies are "testing" various designs! I know that the SL skis will not have rockers since there are other negatives effects !!!

I know the downhill ski will not have rockers also.

As far as GS,,,,the question will be debated for several years now since all companies are "testing" the new sizes !!! I tried a GS 180 cm. prototype last year that had a 2 mm. rocker ! Not pleasant to ski! But that is my opinion !

As for that last "observation", "If you can apply a lot of pressure and get strong angles in turns",,,,,

Not sure what you mean. I never apply "strong" pressure. It is when and where you apply the pressure that makes a skier faster and more effective" Often when young skiers apply "strong" pressure they are trying to "dominant" the ski to go beyond its performance range ! Bad news will follow !

Your basic advice is, "if you want to learn carving ,,,go shorter is correct" but never as short as some ski shops recommend ! If tips go below chin,,,,,,too short ! You will develop bad habits with very short ski! Too much body rotaion. Too much sitting back !
Too much tip "flutter" !


In short,,it is a personal choice!
In short skiers must educate themselves first on what each ski does

If I have just ONE comment to make it is, "DO NOT believe marketing blurs "...
Try out the skis first!

I hope this will start at whole debate about rockers and how they are great in all ski conditions !

Respectfully,
Pavel

pavelski wrote:

As for that last "observation", "If you can apply a lot of pressure and get strong angles in turns",,,,,

Not sure what you mean. I never apply "strong" pressure. It is when and where you apply the pressure that makes a skier faster and more effective" Often when young skiers apply "strong" pressure they are trying to "dominant" the ski to go beyond its performance range ! Bad news will follow !


Pavel

I was speaking relatively (and in terms the OP might easier understand). If you like you could say a longer ski requires better technique to make tighter carved turns. If you don't have this ability, carving on a larger radius will result in going too fast.

pavelski wrote:

I hope this will start at whole debate about rockers and how they are great in all ski conditions !

Perhaps in a new thread

Trencher,,,
Are you sure you are not an adolescent ?

Your statement is right on,,," yes a longer ski requires better technique to make carve turn"

The second statement is even more "relevant" !

The level 3 ski instructor examination involves just what you state ! The candidates must ski down varied terrain ( steep, flat, moguls ) while still keeping SAME SPEED at all times !

This examinations really identifies the men/women from the boys,,,,,girls !!!!!

Watch out for the steep paved roads !!!!

Pavel

Thanks all for the help.

I tested them at the MK Xscape. The others I tried were the Salomon Enduro RX and the K2 Rictor. The Volkls felt the best, they felt much more stable. As you say the graphics are not good but if I make the right choice I will be enjoying myself too much to care.

From the research I have done into rockers and from your comments it seems that they are (or certainly were) designed for powder. My skiing preferences generally tend towards on-piste but that does not mean that the pistes are always well groomed. I also like the flexibility to be able to go into softer stuff if I am with a group who do.

Perhaps I have missed that point of the rocker in this context though. If the rocker is used with a conventional side cut, when the ski is put on it's edge more of the edge will engage. Because of the geometry it seems that the rocker will work with the side cut. Then at speed is a straight line the wider shaped tip will be off the ground and hence more stable.

That is my evaluation of how the skis work, It seems to fit with where Volkl seem to place the ski in the Piste/Powder range. Interesting topic.

Jwoodhouse,

I agree with all your comments and would like to add, if you do not mind the following!

You state, "Then at speed,,IN A STRAIGHT LINE the widder shaped tip will be off the ground [i]hence more stable!!!"

The hence more stable is not due to the raised tip !

If you accept the fact that "shorter the ski" less stable ( all other factors equal), then the raised tip does make the running surface of the ski shorter ! That is there is less contact surface on snow!
That makes the ski less stable!

Where the "danger" comes into play in my opinion is using rockers in varied snow conditions is that the feel and stability will vary also! It is up to each skier to test what feeling they want in the terrain they ski!

In my area,it is well groomed or powder ! Rare are the times when slopes are clumpy, choppy, or full of crud !

Again be careful of marketing literature !

Happy skiing and keep us posted on your "feelings"

Pavel